How the Food Industry Shapes “Choice”: A Conversation with Marion Nestle, Part 2
From Hidden Marketing to Endless Snacking: Why Our Food Environment Pushes So Many Calories
Last week, I shared the first part of my conversation with Marion Nestle. If you missed it, it’s worth a read. We covered her path to NYU, how she found herself writing book after book on food politics (17 and counting), and her very sensible answer to the most paralyzing question in nutrition: “What should I eat now?” Which also happens to be the title of her latest book.
Today, we’re picking up where we left off. We get into the illusion of “personal choice”, the sheer volume of calories our environment throws at us, and how eating everywhere—cars, couches, classrooms—has somehow become the new normal.
We finish with a quick-fire Q&A—just Marion, her instincts, and some rapid-response opinions. You’ll get a quick sense of where you align with her or where you might politely agree to disagree.
Here’s Part 2 organized into 6 sections.
Food Industry Tactics
Lourdes Castro: In What To Eat Now, you write about the food industry and its tactics. What food industry tactic concerns you the most? And which do you think the public just really hasn’t grasped?
Marion Nestle: Well, all of it. Marketing, including the front-facing stuff on labels. Nobody notices that. It’s pervasive, and fortunes go into it; an enormous amount of research goes into it. Also, the behind-the-scenes stuff like funding election campaigns and lobbying. They’re pretty good at that. And you don’t see that at all. That’s invisible.
LC: I feel there is a lot of invisible marketing taking place.
MN: Most don’t understand slotting fees in supermarkets. When you go into a supermarket, the placement of every single item is paid for. Some company has paid the supermarket to put their product exactly where it is. The ones that are at eye level, the ones that are at the ends of the aisles, the ones that are in those separate, freestanding columns, that is all a cash source. All that’s paid for. And you don’t see that.
LC: And what about the other aspect that you described - the lobbying?
MN: Well, you certainly don’t see that. But, you know, one thing about the Make America Healthy Again movement that’s so obvious to me is that between the first and second report, the lobbyist got to them. Because the first one was aspirational. This is what we’re gonna do. The second one was supposed to be how they were going to do it. But nothing. Nothing. They’re not gonna do anything.
LC: It’s the same thing that happened to Michelle Obama, right?
MN: Well, of course, except this is not quite as vicious. They were more vicious towards her. They’re not yelling about the nanny state now. You don’t hear anything about the nanny state and what Kennedy is doing. But there’s plenty of evidence that the lobbyist got to him.
The Illusion of Personal Choice
LC: You wrote in your conclusion that what we deem as our personal food choices are simply the options put in front of us by the food industry. And all the options they put in front of us make them money. You also write that people often accuse you of being anti-business, and you feel you’re not. So what would you like to see from the food industry?
MN: I would like them to be more straightforward. We’re making this product because we think it’s delicious, and we hope you’ll buy a lot of it. Not that we’re making this product because it’s gonna make you healthier. I do a lot of industry-funded study analysis, and there’s hardly any food in the supermarket that doesn’t have a study behind it showing that it’s either beneficial, it doesn’t do any harm, or it has some magical property.
Too Many Available Calories
LC: You’ve visited a lot of the grocery aisles. What surprised you most when you revisited?
MN: All the waters. When you walk into Wegmans, you don’t see Coke and Pepsi at the entrance; you see bottled water. Also, grocery stores have been completely reorganized because of online ordering. That’s an enormous change. The introduction of plant-based dairy and meats. That’s new. The overtaking of branded foods by store brands. It’s really prominent in almost every Target, Walmart, Wegmans; they all have their own house brands. And people buy them.
LC: I remember growing up in Miami, where the local market is Publix. And if you bought the Publix brand, it was always considered subpar.
MN: Not anymore. That’s changed. So that’s a big change. The introduction of international foods throughout the store. That’s new. There used to be a little section tucked away, and now it’s throughout the stores. And then, of course, the individual products have changed. None of the products that I talked about in What To Eat in 2006 still exist, so I had to find new examples. That’s interesting. And then line extensions have increased. In 2006, there were one or two kinds of Cheerios; now there are like 20.
LC: Which goes to something you also wrote in the book: on average, an American has 4,000 daily calories available to them.
MN: And needs about 2000.
LC: But if there’s already 4,000 calories [per person] out there, from a business perspective there’s not much room for growth.
MN: So they have to invent something. And line extension keeps things new, so people just keep buying. That’s why there are seasonal flavors like pumpkin spice and special stuff for Christmas. The boxes are red and white, and look like they’re presents. That kind of thing. They do that to get sales.
But the Cheerios thing is amazing. And it’s not only because they offer all these options; it takes up huge amounts of shelf space, and the rule is, the more shelf space there is, the more visible it is, and the more visible it is, the more people are likely to buy it.
We Eat Everywhere
MN: And then there’s the issue of quantity. Large portions were introduced in parallel with rising rates of obesity. Most people can’t believe how many calories they’re eating. You can’t see them. You can’t really count them. Even if they come in a box, you’ve got to weigh the amount that you’re eating, because if you’re eating more than what the defined serving size is, you’re taking in more calories.
LC: I agree with you that the portion sizes have increased, but another thing that has increased is society’s tolerance in allowing eating to occur everywhere.
A: My favorite example is the NYU library.
LC: I was going to say the same thing!
MN: Remember those posters? There were posters all over the library. If you bring food in here, you’re out!
LC: There’s even an old sign in one of the classrooms by my office that says “No smoking, eating, or drinking”. I remember being an undergrad and maybe having a Diet Coke with me, and that was it. Now I have students in my classroom bringing a full dinner. They literally set up a picnic in front of them, and as I’m talking, they’re eating. And that is socially acceptable. I think the only place where it is still considered bad form to bring food is a church or a place of worship.
MN: Maybe a Broadway show? Snacking has become normalized. And all of that happened in the 1980s. Research shows, the more you snack, the more calories you take in. Soccer moms have to bring vast amounts of food for these kids, as if they can’t go for two hours without eating. They bring junk food. I remember when I was a kid, you didn’t eat between lunch and dinner, period, end of story. And you know what? You survived. You were pretty hungry by dinner. And then you ate all your dinner.
Food is sold everywhere. And it’s sold in ways that have really increased from 20 years ago. It’s not just that the library has vending machines, bookstores have cafes, and clothing stores have restaurants. It’s incredible.
The “Wild West” of the Supermarket
LC: Dietitians will typically say, eat fatty fish for the omega-3 fatty acids, and leave it there. But patients and clients will come back and say, but what about PFAS, methylmercury, etc.
MN: It’s very hard. The fish chapters [from What To Eat Now] were published as a separate book [The Fish Counter]. I consider [the seafood department] the Wild West of the supermarket, because most people can’t tell the difference between one fish and another. In order to make an intelligent choice, you need to know what the fish is, where it was raised, whether it was wild or farmed, where it was caught, how it was caught. It’s astonishing how much you need to know. It’s overwhelming.
LC: So then what’s the take home? What does a busy consumer do?
MN: You have to trust your seller. That’s it. Just go to a reputable seller. I don’t know how else to do it. I’m very impressed with the people at Wegmans. First of all, they were perfectly happy to answer questions, and I had lots of them.Then they have brochures that explain all sort of stuff like where they get their fish. Plus all their seafood is certified. So you’re better off if you can access something like that, otherwise, you’re completely on your own.
GLP-1s & Nutrition Education
LC: I’d like to ask you some questions about healthcare providers. There’s a lot of buzz now about doctors being better educated in nutrition. You started your career in that realm. As far as medical training goes, what is a nutrition competency you think is important for a doctor or soon to be doctor?
MN: To be able to identify that a nutrition problem exists and refer them to a dietitian. I don’t know what your experience with your primary care provider is, but most people get 15 minutes. And of that, 15 minutes, maybe 10 is in conversation, the rest of it the doctor is on a computer. So there’s no time to investigate diet. But if you’ve got a patient in front of you who’s got type 2 diabetes, that person needs dietary counseling, because if that person loses weight, the symptoms might resolve. It doesn’t even have to be a lot of weight. So you want to get that person to a dietitian, let the dietitian find out what the patient is eating, and prescribe a dietary pattern that will involve eating less.
LC: I think doctors now might be suggesting GLP1s instead of referring to a dietitian.
MN: Well, they might. That could work. But they should still recommend a dietitian because there’s plenty of evidence that GLP1 drugs work better when the diet improves.
LC: What would you like to see from dietitians moving forward so that they could be more effective with patients?
MN: Well, I’d like dietitians to know a lot more about the way the food environment works. Because that’s what patients are up against. These things are personal choices, yes, but they are personal choices in the context of a food environment that is designed to get people to eat as much food as they possibly can as often as they can. And to pay as much for it as possible. It’s not designed to make people eat more healthily. So if you are trying to eat healthfully in today’s food environment, you’re fighting the whole thing on your own. It’s a $2 trillion system in the United States. That’s a lot to ask of a patient. So you teach patients about how food marketing works. The reasons they like certain foods. And how to transition off of those foods.
LC: Come up with a game plan to help them.
MN: Yes, to help them fight against a system in which everything around them is trying to get them to eat more of the most profitable foods, regardless of what those foods do.
Before we wrapped, I asked Marion to do a quick-fire round about her daily habits, food preferences, and a few hot takes. I’ve added my own answers alongside hers so you can see where we’re aligned…and where we respectfully part ways.
Do you prefer sweet or savory?
MN: Sweet. For sure!
LC: Savory
Coffee or tea?
MN: Coffee
LC: Coffee
As far as chocolate is concerned, dark, milk or white milk?
MN: Milk
LC: Dark or White - never milk!
Do you prefer to cook at home or eat at a restaurant?
MN: That’s a complicated question. I like both. I like cooking at home. But the restaurants can’t be too noisy.
LC: I agree - it’s complicated. I like entertaining at home but I also like going out to eat so long as it’s with a very small group.
If you cook at home, are you a recipe follower, or are you an intuitive cook
MN: Intuitive
LC: Intuitive but I use recipes for inspiration
If you eat out, do you prefer to eat at the bar or eat at a table?
MN: Table
LC: Bar
Grocery shopping, are you a list maker, or are you a wanderer?
MN: Both. I get what I came for and then I wander.
LC: List maker!
Do you prefer online or in person shopping?
MN: In person
LC: Depends what I’m shopping for. I would say 75% online/25% in-person
And do you have a favorite aisle or department in the supermarket?
MN: The cereal aisles. Which is the topic of my next book. I always go straight to the cereal aisle. I just love it.
LC: Fruit and cheese departments
Do you have a favorite cereal?
MN: Post mini wheats.That’s my cereal. It has one ingredient, Wheat. No sugar, no salt. I add skim milk and fruit, always fruit.
LC: I can’t remember the last time I ate cereal.
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